Ep 157: "Hey! That's MINE!"

Michael A Heller and Jim Salzman, authors of Mine!, share the hidden rules behind ownership disputes and the secret to better bargaining and leveraging your power as the parent.If you've enjoyed Talking to Teens, we'd love if you could leave us a five-star rating, and if you have time, a review! Full show notesThere’s one slice of pizza left, and all three of your kids want it. One kid argues that he called dibs on it before it even came out of the oven, so it’s definitely his. Another says that since she had track practice today, she’s the hungriest–and therefore it belongs to her. The third declares that the two slices he already ate were wayyyy smaller than the rest, making him the rightful owner of this final piece. Unable to stop bickering over it, they look to you to decide who gets to eat it….but it seems like all three of them are making a pretty good case!Decisions like this can feel impossible, but as parents, we face them almost everyday. Not only are there battles of ownership between the kids themselves, but you and your teen also likely argue over who owns their phones, the car, their bedroom, and even perhaps their body. (Who should get the final say on blue hair and belly button piercings?) When problems arise, it’s not always easy to distinguish what belongs to who, and that can make life pretty difficult!This week, we’re talking about the rules of ownership….and what makes them so complicated. Our guests are Michael Heller and James Salzman, authors of the new book Mine!: How the Hidden Rules of Ownership Control Our Lives. In their work as lawyers and law professors, James and Michael have spent a lot of time thinking about possession and what entitles someone to the rights of ownership.To help us understand how disputes over ownership arise, Michael, James and I are discussing the six rules that people use to argue that they have possession of something. We’re also chatting about why companies think they have the right to sell your data and covering how you can use your ownership position to teach kids important life lessons.The Six Stories of OwnershipWhen your kids are arguing over that last slice of pizza, they’re each telling a different story to prove that they deserve it. This is why settling disputes over ownership is so complicated...since each of the kids is technically correct about having some possession of the slice!Michael and James explain that one of the most common ways we claim ownership is through the principle of first come, first serve. We also often believe something belongs to us through the law of attachment: if the armrest is attached to my chair in the movie theater, it must be mine…..and not my neighbor’s! Possession is another way to claim ownership, Michael and James emphasize. If your teen possesses their laptop, they tend to think they own it–even if you’re the one who paid for it.Interestingly, the dispute over the principle of bodily ownership is one that’s baffled us for decades, say James and Michael. Some people argue that if something is connected to or extending from their physical body they should have total control over that thing, but not everyone agrees! This is particularly relevant for women’s bodies, when it comes to things like surrogacy or abortion, but it’s also prominent in debates over the right to sell one’s organs or the ability to be euthanized. As a parent, you may experience tension around the topic of bodily autonomy when your teen wants to wear certain clothes you can’t condone or dye their hair a color you disapprove of.In the episode, we talk about how parents can deal with the challenge of teens who are eager to get eyebrow piercings or sport a shirt with a provocative saying. We also discuss the two other principles of ownership: possession through labor and familial possession!In some cases, conflict over ownership can spread beyond just person to person combat–when companies believe it’s their right to harvest and sell your data.How Companies “Own” Your DataMost of us wouldn’t say that Google or Apple has a right to document and distribute our information, but those companies might say otherwise. They often argue ownership on the principle of labor, claiming that they worked hard to create the search engine, and therefore have ownership rights over customer data, explain Michael and James.These companies might say that since you are already on their site, your browsing information also belongs to them through the powers of possession and attachment. In the episode, we talk about how you can defend your privacy and emphasize that only you have a right to data about your internet activity.One service you might not consider a threat to your data ownership–but you should be looking out for–is genetic testing, say Michael and James. When you swab your saliva and send it into 23 and me, you’ll learn some interesting facts about your ancestors, but you’re also offering up your genetic data to a company that can then sell it to pharmaceutical and insurance companies. Since the testing companies possess it, they claim ownership to it, and use it to turn a profit.Having ownership over something gives the owner quite a bit of power, which is why companies want to own our data so badly! In the case of business, they want to gain the power of capital, but for parents, the power of ownership can have a whole different dimension.How Parents Can Harness the Power of OwnershipSo the last slice of pizza is just sitting there, waiting for it’s rightful owner to be declared. But the reason kids are looking to you for answers about this particular pizza is because you paid for it! That technically grants you ownership of the pizza, meaning you have the power to decide who gets that final slice.Having the power of ownership can help you teach kids a lesson about equality! In the episode, we flashback to Michael's on childhood. After hearing Michael and his siblings bicker over the biggest piece of pie, his parents instituted a new rule–whomever cuts the pie has to pick their own slice last. This taught Michael pretty quickly to cut all the pieces exactly even so he didn’t get a smaller piece than his siblings. Not only did everyone get a fair and even slice, but Michael himself learned to be more equitable!Although it can be used for good, Michael and Jim explain how some companies use their ownership power to manipulate users. For example, it’s pretty common for teens to swap login information for various streaming services, so they can use Hulu or Disney+ without forking over the dough for a prescription. Although this is technically illegal, sites like HBO Max allow it to continue because it creates video addicts out of young people, so that when they grow up, they’ll end up spending their own cash on the HBO subscription they feel like can’t live without.In the Episode...Although the rules of ownership might get us into some sticky situations, they can also help us distinguish what belongs to whom and why. On top of the topics discussed above, we also cover:Why we should all know about the Coase theoremHow creating a will can save your kids from financial ruinWhy we shouldn’t use analogies to reason with teensHow “first come, first serve” can be harmful for kidsIf you want to find more of Michael and James’ work, you ...