What Biological & Social Systems Can Teach us About AI with Nora Ammann, Cofounder of PIBBSS Research

In this episode, Nathan sits down with Nora Ammann, cofounder and CEO of PIBBSS (Principles of Intelligent Behavior in Biological and Social Systems), a research initiative focused on the principles of intelligent behavior in biological and social systems. If you need an ecommerce platform, check out our sponsor Shopify: https://shopify.com/cognitive for a $1/month trial period. We're hiring across the board at Turpentine and for Erik's personal team on other projects he's incubating. He's hiring a Chief of Staff, EA, Head of Special Projects, Investment Associate, and more. For a list of JDs, check out: eriktorenberg.com. SPONSORS: Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Shopify powers 10% of ALL eCommerce in the US. And Shopify's the global force behind Allbirds, Rothy's, and Brooklinen, and 1,000,000s of other entrepreneurs across 175 countries.From their all-in-one e-commerce platform, to their in-person POS system – wherever and whatever you're selling, Shopify's got you covered. With free Shopify Magic, sell more with less effort by whipping up captivating content that converts – from blog posts to product descriptions using AI. Sign up for $1/month trial period: https://shopify.com/cognitive Omneky is an omnichannel creative generation platform that lets you launch hundreds of thousands of ad iterations that actually work customized across all platforms, with a click of a button. Omneky combines generative AI and real-time advertising data. Mention "Cog Rev" for 10% off. X/SOCIAL @labenz (Nathan) @AmmannNora (Nora) @eriktorenberg (Erik) @CogRev_Podcast TIMESTAMPS: (00:00:00) - Introduction to Nora Amman and PIBS (00:03:25) - Nathan's view that society is not ready for rapid AI development (00:05:55) - Nora's framing of AI safety, alignment, and risks (00:09:31) - The problem of epistemic access to future AI systems (00:12:36) - Categorizing different research approaches to AI safety (00:15:46) - Seeking epistemic robustness through plural perspectives (00:19:00) - Expecting AI systems to continue getting more powerful and different (00:21:13) - Nora's "third way" research approach using biological and social systems (00:25:00) - Defining intelligence broadly across systems that transform inputs to outputs (00:27:29) - Avoiding analogies and anthropomorphism when studying AI systems (00:30:23) - Using multiple perspectives and assumptions to triangulate understanding (00:35:13) - Translating concepts between domains more multifaceted than just "borrowing" (00:38:15) - Learning from interdisciplinary practices like bioengineering (00:42:05) - Key questions about the nature of intelligence and agency (00:46:38) - Understanding hierarchical levels of agentic behavior (00:49:32) - Aligning goals between individuals and organizations (00:53:27) - Assessing the validity of assumptions and analogies about AI (00:58:57) - Informing AI interpretability and evaluation with theory (01:02:12) - Modeling interactions between AI systems (01:04:56) - Using ecology as a framework for AI interactions (01:07:46) - Developing a computational ecology theory (01:11:45) - Learning from historical examples of societal transformations (01:16:59) - Unprecedented speed and autonomy of AI development (01:19:00) - PIBS programs for connecting researchers across domains (01:23:39) - Seeking researchers to tie theory to concrete AI applications (01:26:45) - Need for productive disagreement on AI risks and solutions This show is produced by Turpentine: a network of podcasts, newsletters, and more, covering technology, business, and culture — all from the perspective of industry insiders and experts. We’re launching new shows every week, and we’re looking for industry-leading sponsors — if you think that might be you and your company, email us at [email protected].