The Past, Present, and Future of 5G with Matt Chatterley and Tom Bennett of British Telecom

In this episode of The IoT Unicorn Podcast, Matt Chatterley and Tom Bennett of British Telecom discuss some of the benefits and challenges of implementing 5G. Download Transcript Here  00:00 Pete Bernard: Welcome to the IoT Unicorn Podcast. This is Pete Bernard from Microsoft, and this podcast is for anyone interested in the long-term technology trends in the IoT space and the journey from here to there. So let's get started.   [music]   00:21 PB: On this upcoming episode of the IoT Unicorn I have a great conversation with Tom Bennett and Matt Chatterley, both of British Telecom. And they explain to me what the term hospital pass means, we talk about some great British beer and all things 5G, past, present and future, and not just for iPhones. So please join us.   00:44 PB: Thanks, Tom and Matt, I'm gonna... This is actually an interesting milestone for us, this is the first time I've had two guests at once on the IoT Unicorn, and I think when I originally was thinking back about having you guys on the show... I've had lots of conversations with each of you individually, and also some really good conversations together and I thought, "Well, let's just get everybody on the horn here and talk about some things around 5G and stuff like that" so I appreciate you guys both making the time all the way from the UK to pipe in here and join us on the Unicorn, so thank you very much.   01:19 Tom Bennett: Thank you for the invite, yeah.   01:21 PB: Sure, sure. So maybe before we get into lots of acronyms and Telco stuff, well, maybe just give us a little bit of a back story. Maybe Tom and Matt about sort of... We're talking about BT, British Telecom, so that's quite a storied institution, and I know that you had worked at EE before that and stuff, maybe just give us a little bit of background about how did each of you get here to this point in time.   [laughter]   01:47 TB: How far back are we allowed to go?   01:50 PB: Oh, you know.   01:50 TB: 25 years, maybe not. So yeah, I joined this thing called 2G, it was a small company that started, anyway, that was 25 years ago. Matt and I, we started a little bit of history of space to EE. So EE is the largest and best mobile operator in the UK and it was formed 10 years ago from the merger of what was then the third and fourth place operators, so it was Orange and T-Mobile. Now by forming that merger it created not just a company, but great assets, and in fact it is number one by customer number. It also had the opportunity to go on to be the best from a network perspective and we did that, we were... In fact, Matt and I started to meet yourself, Pete, was eight years ago when we launched 4G and we were a year, year and a half ahead of the competition in the UK.   02:44 PB: That's right.   02:44 TB: And the rest is history from there. We launched 4G first in the UK, launched our new brand, EE and the rollout was phenomenal. From there, we hit top 10 cities, and then right now, I think our 4G coverage is just pushing 85%, 86% of the geography of the country, not just people, geography of the country, and that's kind of phenomenal eight years after launch. In fact, our launch anniversary is this November. This first week in November we launched. And yeah, that's where we started and then obviously BT, which has no mobile assets, BT originally was just the fixed operator. I've looked at this new EE upstart with its phenomenal 4G network and said, "Yeah, we want some of that." And four years ago Matt? Four years ago they bought us.   03:39 Matt Chatterley: [03:39] ____.   03:41 TB: We all moved in to BT and really that was very much a both commercially strategic and technologically kind of architecturally strategic decision because...   03:52 PB: Wow, that's cool. Something happened.   03:53 TB: Because as you roll forward, I'm sure you know, really it's about running forward with the best 4G and now 5G network, and it's a converse plate, it's how you leverage both assets together for the fixed and mobile network, and that's a very, very, very brief snapshot of where we started as third and fourth place operator and now we work for the largest Telco in the UK.   04:15 PB: Right. And how long have you and Matt been working together?   04:18 MC: It's far too long...   [laughter]   04:20 TB: Way too long, I mean we have counselling, it's a bit like a marriage.   04:24 PB: Good, good, with an HR benefit.   04:25 TB: [04:25] ____.   [laughter]   04:27 MC: At the start of the JV, I was actually in Deutsche Telekom, working for DT International, and then they wanted someone to go into the JV and the Clean Team where if it didn't work out, you get six months pay not to work and then, unfortunately, it did work out. So I've had [04:40] ____.   [laughter]   04:40 MC: Yeah, so I think we started right at the very beginning, didn't we Tom?   04:45 TB: Yeah, we did.   04:45 MC: When we figured out what the right approach would be to go to make devices work in this space, so yeah, we were right at the very start.   04:51 PB: I see. So, today what is your... For Tom and Matt, just for our customers, and our customers are our listener's edification, what is your current accountabilities or what are you guys working on? [laughter] Or not working on, I don't know.   05:06 TB: Yeah, exactly, we only work as much as we can. No. So I'm accountable for partnerships, external partnerships such as this with Microsoft and innovations, so I pick up anything from a innovation perspective, be that technology, service, solution.   05:21 PB: Okay cool.   05:22 MC: And I look after all things related to devices and identities, which is what we call SIM cards, but it's actually much more overreaching that, and then the partnership as well from a mobile perspective. So the team that we've got looks after pretty much... If it goes onto the network we've tested and approved it and made sure it works.   05:40 PB: Right. Right. Cool. Yeah, actually before we got into the official podcast here, I was mentioning to Tom about... I remember going to the Great British Beer Festival with Tom a few years ago. [laughter] Which was a lot of fun. That was pretty cool. That was serious beer culture going on, and I know they didn't have it this past year, but...   06:00 MC: There's some very bizarre beers there though.   06:02 TB: Hell yeah, there is.   06:03 PB: Yeah, wild stuff. I saw some controversy where they were gonna... This year, I think when they were gonna have it, they put out some sort of glass or something and it had Coronavirus little logos on it, and I think they got a lot of pushback on that...   [laughter]   06:15 TB: Yeah, I can imagine they did.   06:17 PB: Way too soon, way too soon, but if you're gonna go to the UK, beer has gotta be part of the... Part of the experience.   06:23 TB: Oh absolutely. Yeah. Very, very much. Yeah. Beer's absolutely part of the culture here and it's a very big microbrewery ecosystem that this is... And to Matt's point far too many people you know had to brew beer and go "Oh, wonder what that tastes like?"   [laughter]   06:42 MC: Let's throw this in there and then call it something crazy.   06:45 PB: That's right. That's right. Well, you know, it doesn't take much, but that's good. So let's talk about 5G a little bit, 'cause I know you guys were really on the front edge of a lot of 5G development and deployment in the UK. And I know that BT's made a lot of noise about the 5G deployments. Maybe can you share with us what surprised you about that or how is it going? What was the learnings from that early, early rollout of 5G?   07:18 TB: Yeah. Should I start with the network, Matt, and you can talk to the devices.   07:23 MC: Yeah, cool.   07:25 TB: So I suppose when we launched 4G, we were in a unique position. We had quite a significant amount of what was then 2G spectrum, so 1800Mhz, and that gave us a great opportunity because we could reuse the existing antennas. Basically what we didn't need to do is organize a crane, a lift crew and install brand-new equipment up the tower or on the rooftop. So our 4G rollout was phenomenally fast. 5G, we didn't have that luxury. Let's be frank. 5G, even though last year, what we launched was 5 GB radio so we haven't launched standalone yet. I thought that these are on the record. Last year was very much a 5G non-standalone, but that still comes with significant logistical challenges because it's a new spectrum band so it's 3.4, 3.5. And that requires brand new antennas. It requires new equipment in the base station and it required upgrade to the transmission to the site, so the backhaul for 10 gig in most cases.   08:32 TB: So, yeah, logistically a much slower rollout. You are talking about good old-fashioned concrete and steel rollout, and therefore that was probably one of the key challenges for us, was the sheer volume of change physically on a per-site basis. Whereas previously, as I said, with 4G, relatively simple. Not massively simple but relatively simple being you weren't changing the antenna. Now we're installing brand-new antennas. And then the complication that brings in terms of the integration and the assurance of the service, because now we're installing new software, new hardware, active antennas, active equipment at the base, and we've gotta get the 4G and the 5G working together for the best service experience. And that's the point at which traditionally I will come to that because as a customer what you care about is what's on the device.   09:24 MC: Yeah, and I think that's what we tried to focus on as well, was the it's all well and good what we do from a network point of view, but if the customer doesn't get a good experience on the device side, then it's irrelevant. And I think some of the things we were talking about earlier on, where I think 2G went from standards complete to devices launching in around three years.   09:43 TB: Yeah, it was.   09:44 MC: I remember being involved in 3G when I was a an [09:46] ____ operator, that was around 18 months, maybe a bit shorter or a bit longer but that sort of time period. 4G again we were quite fortunate from a network point of view, that it had been live in other countries beforehand, so there was quite a decent device base out there that we could use. 5G, we went from standard to complete to launching in crazy amounts. I think it was around three months in total, and even then we were shaving things off in the last minute about, "Let's do another base-band update and make sure this works." So, on the whole though, the launch has gone fine. We've had from a device point of view, the customer experience has been, been really good, and I think what we're seeing with 5G though, with the works and the [10:27] ____ our partners are doing, the ramp down in terms of price of equipment is much faster than 4G. We were targeting super low price of the 4G phones in probably 2014, 2015. We were already getting those from a 5G point of view now. So we really are going [10:44] ____.   10:44 PB: I noticed that. I think Qualcomm has been just working overtime, triple overtime to bring...   10:50 MC: We've both worked closely with them, yeah.   10:51 PB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's hard to keep track of all...   10:54 MC: It is. I get confused. [10:54] ____.   10:57 PB: Yeah, Their 5G summit's going on this week too, I think...   11:00 TB: Yeah, it is.   11:01 PB: [11:01] ____ have registered for that. We actually have Jason Xander who is our EVP speaking at that. He's doing a walk-on, so he'll say some cool stuff on that but... Yeah, no, it's been... I think the whole ecosystem has been on overdrive around 5G, and as you mentioned before, it's like there is a lot of complexity there. You mentioned you're at 3.5, there's different frequencies that people are rolling out at. It gets a little confusing. Like in the US, we've got people at millimetre wave, some at telcos and some at like sub six, and some standalone or non-standalone, and depending on whether you have a Samsung or not, or blah, blah, blah. It's like super challenging. I think they're trying to make it simple for customers, consumers and businesses, but there's so many different ways to slice and dice the network in terms of what's virtualized and what's on-prem and all these other things, and it's gonna be...   11:51 MC: I think the important thing is you focus on what's the benefit to the customer.   11:54 TB: Yeah, exactly.   11:55 PB: Right.   11:55 MC: It's our job to hide all that stuff from them [11:58] ____ just works.   12:00 PB: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I have a Samsung Note 20 ultra 5G. I don't know if I got that name right. It keeps going. It's a big long name, but whatever. It's the whole thing. Yeah, there you go. I got one of those things.   12:12 MC: [12:12] ____.   12:12 PB: Oh no. [12:13] ____ right. You guys can't see the video here, but he's [12:17] ____.   [laughter]   12:18 PB: Very nice. Very nice. So my understanding was that in T-Mobile in the US, that's running on standalone 5G.   12:25 TB: Wow. Excellent.   12:27 PB: Yeah, that's kinda cool. And it's been great so far. It's a great phone. It's a nice upgrade. I had an S8 plus before that so... But you're right. But the other thing is like people think about 5G as... I had a little bit of a pushback this week. Apple introduced new iPhones and they have 5G, and 5G is great in phones. It's a faster connection. Who doesn't want a faster connection, right?   12:52 TB: Exactly.   12:53 PB: But one of the interesting things is so what does 5G do beyond phones, right? 'Cause everyone has a phone, okay we get it, and they're faster, okay. But the other thing is how are other things getting connected beyond just phones, and that's kind of... For me, and especially maybe the audience, it's called the IoT Unicorn, that's the name of the podcast, but things that get connected to the cloud over cellular to me is kind of like this incredible opportunity for folks to sort of can see that these scenarios that just weren't possible before.   13:25 MC: Yeah. And I think there's also a lot of hype around 5G being super fast speeds, and we spoke about this earlier on, but it's also low power, and I think that's where the big opportunities for us are. Because that you can in theory connect things that could last considerably longer than a smartphone would doing IoT type things.   13:44 PB: Right, right. Yeah, it's just more power-efficient.   13:46 MC: Yeah.   13:46 TB: Yeah.   13:47 PB: Yeah, which is good. Although, you know UK, unfortunately, is a little bit famous for folks like burning down 5G towers and stuff, I don't know what reason but... [laughter] I just...   13:56 TB: Yes.   13:58 PB: I thought the US was nuts, but you guys top...   14:01 TB: Unfortunately, that's one that's a bit of a homegrown madness. I mean I have seen some of that across some of the other towers.   14:08 PB: Yeah.   14:08 TB: Anglo states so, you know, Australia or New Zealand have had their own, but I don't think anywhere near as bad as unfortunately [14:14] ____. Yeah, exactly [14:20] ____ it'd be terrifying. I don't know how to put it very, very politely other than using quite harsh words about the intentions of some people.   14:32 PB: Yeah.   14:32 TB: I will say this much, it comes with significant cost. [14:39] ____ I have these two points to make, one is a very serious one which is when somebody burns down a mast, in all seriousness, that's the mast that often we share our masts with our [14:50] ____ one of the masts that was burned in Wales that covers three valleys and was the only mast in that area, so those three valleys and the people in those towns and villages they could not make [15:02] ____ until we rebuilt it.   15:04 PB: Yeah.   15:05 TB: So, it's not great, and unfortunately the, well, for want of a better phrase, morons involved here really aren't thinking that through. The other thing to note by the way is, unfortunately, we've had just over 100 incidents involving these towers, involving we've had more instances where engineers who, for instance, have been working on fibre have been threatened, and they're not even working on 5G.   15:29 PB: Yeah.   15:30 TB: And of those 100 towers, not one of them was 5G.   15:37 PB: Wow.   15:37 MC: That's the bad part. Yeah.   15:37 PB: Yeah, yeah. It's really... It's, yeah, it's really unfortunate. I mean we're at... In all seriousness, it is very unfortunate. We are at, you know, we're recording this actually about two weeks before the US Elections so we're almost at full tilt boogie here.   [laughter]   15:50 PB: In terms of crazy, crazy town but...   15:54 TB: Yeah.   15:54 PB: I think this is going to be published like the day before election day. So, you know, hopefully yeah, cooler heads prevail and people, you know, kind of dial it all down a little bit and kinda think it through but 'cause it's not... It's just not productive for people to just go off and...   16:10 MC: No, and the impact done also. And if you...   16:13 PB: Yeah, of course.   16:14 MC: And again if we talk about IoT if you've got a bunch of sensors in a factory that's had the mast burnt down then so we need to, we need to look at how we secure this a bit more.   16:23 PB: Yeah, that's too bad. But yeah so getting back...   16:25 TB: There's an education piece to go with it as well. Sorry, go on Pete...   16:30 PB: Yeah sure. Yeah, for sure. And so just getting back to the IoT parts, so yeah, the... You mentioned about low power. I mean, 5G provides high density, low latency, in addition to high performance, low power, where are you guys seeing things heading in terms of interesting things connected over the 5G network beyond phones? [chuckle]   16:53 TB: Yeah, thanks for that, thanks for the... That's the hospital... Have you got the phrase hospital pass? Is that scanned across to America?   17:01 PB: I don't think we know what that means, what does that mean?   17:03 TB: Yeah, so the game rugby if you're familiar with it.   17:06 PB: Okay.   17:07 TB: It's obviously all about physical tackling much like American football.   17:09 PB: Okay. Got it.   17:10 TB: And a hospital pass is when you're being attacked by the enemy... The other side and you give the ball to your mate just as they [17:16] ____.   17:16 PB: Ah, I see. And that's a hospital pass.   [laughter]   17:17 TB: Now so he gets the hospital pass.   17:19 PB: Good one. That's a good phrase. I'm gonna use it.   [laughter]   17:23 TB: So, thanks for the hospital pass.   [laughter]   17:27 TB: So, I think as you've already discussed, look, the consumer and having a faster iPhone, a faster smartphone, brilliant and you obviously see the growth in form factors as Matt ably demonstrated with an affordable phone. We do see a great in B2B and B2C as well, so businesses selling different services to consumer requiring that bandwidth, and requiring let's remember low-latency so an absolute requirement for information now, not necessarily in 10 to 20 seconds' time but you know 50 to 100 milliseconds' time. So, we're starting to see some interesting... Just testing the water. So, some services that are very, very distinctly kind of looking to integrate heavily between what would traditionally be an [18:12] ____ OTT play, actually they're starting to talk to us about, well, how could they guarantee the latency? And maybe isn't the fastest possible latency... I mean if you take the example of gaming and gamers that just want everything instantly in zero milliseconds.   18:25 PB: Sure, sure.   18:26 TB: But how could we guarantee a consistency of latency?   18:29 PB: Right, right.   18:30 TB: And then finally we are seeing a great deal of research, so we work as the department accountable for this, and government in the UK it's called DCMS and they're doing a lot of investment and we work hand-in-glove with them on some of the trials they're doing, and that covers everything from connecting it to factories, so B2B including drones as well, so there's an example drones. We're investigating how and where and when we can develop a drone use service and that's as a vertical, so that's not just us the telecoms operator, that's working with partners, working with who would be the new traffic control system for that, so on and so forth. So I think across consumer and across business to consumer, and then across business to business you're seeing a growth across all those areas and I say you're still at the... You've gone beyond technology experimentation. We're into commercial experimentation now. We're trying to work out what the right commercial models.   19:28 PB: Yeah, exactly, and also...   19:28 MC: And when you said...   19:30 PB: Oh, sorry go ahead, go ahead.   19:31 MC: I'd say, yeah, from a device point of view what we're trying to do is abstract that out so it's not a random selection of bits of equipment, we're trying to go what do each of these verticals need from a connectivity point of view, so doing an ultra fast, low-latency 5G. Therefore, we'll go and build some solutions with our partners that can do that but also the super low power, and it sends a few kilobytes of data a day, products as well with different sense of that. So, we're trying to create a portfolio of products that can go into all of these different solutions.   20:00 PB: Right, right.   20:01 MC: But it's... Yeah.   20:02 PB: So, that's everything from LPWA up to 5G.   20:04 MC: Pretty much, yeah. And an awful lot of being in 4G as well still. There's still an awful lot of legs in 4G stuff as well. So yeah, it's trying to make sure that if you want to build a factory solution that's probably more going to be millimetre wave. If you're going to go and put a center in a field that's more going to be LPWA.   20:18 PB: Exactly. You mentioned, Tom, the guaranteed costs, early predictable costs, network, are you talking about things like network slicing and like virtualized networks something like that?   20:28 TB: Yeah, I mean yes there tends to be... We're about to both go Bingo.   20:38 PB: Okay, yeah, here you go. [chuckle]   20:38 TB: Do you need a full end-to-end slice for a lot of these services, [20:42] ____ you want? There's a lot of these services where you can, as I say, develop and deliver on a straightforward APN calls basis. I think one of the other things we're finding, as I say, particularly as we're now looking beyond the technology, we're looking commercially, what can we go to market with and the people we collaborate with. We need to be very sensible here. Any proposition, any product that goes to market in the course of the next five, six years, it's gonna have 4G as an integral part of its service offering, because it's going to take that long to roll out a nationwide 5G network.   21:20 TB: So if you and I are gonna go bring a proposition to market in the course of the next, say, four or five years, well it's gonna be a mix of 4G and 5G, and therefore we've gotta look at the available technologies. Now, there is a lot that's available from the 4G perspective. It's still got a lot of wind left in the sails. So, yes, in a purest sense, to come back to your question, of course network slicing, but I don't think you need that as a key enabler to still get to market in the course of the next few years.   21:50 PB: Right, right, yeah, no, I agree. I agree. I think it's a sort of longer term... One of the interesting things we're seeing obviously at Microsoft, being pretty software-oriented, is how a lot of the network capabilities are becoming software-focused and virtualized, right? And a lot of things that have been bespoke in silicone or hardware are now becoming more software-driven, and those could be cloud-powered or edge-powered or somewhere in between. So that's giving people lots of different ways of thinking about deploying services very quickly and being much more agile with the networks that they have developed. So that's interesting.   22:31 MC: One of the things that we need to make sure we also look at as well is how we secure it. The data that you get at the end of the chain is only as good as the data that you can prove was there viable at the start. So we've been talking a lot about this from the software point of view, is what do put on the end device, how do you make sure that the data that's generating is reliable, trusted, secure, so that by the time it gets back to whatever platform it's using, it can be trusted. And that's a lot of what we've been talking about over the last year...   23:01 PB: Yeah, yeah, and I think we've done a lot of work with Azure Sphere and hardware attestation, and how do you just... You're authenticating the data all the way through from beginning to end so you know what you're working with, but yeah, it sounds like there's no shortage of work to do, that's what I like to tell people.   23:19 TB: That is very true. It's one thing, I think I'm very conscious of us having this conversation in the middle of a pandemic, but I don't know about you guys, but I'm as busy as I've ever been. It's interesting in that so many people... I think what the pandemic has absolutely done is accelerated everybody's digital adoption.   23:41 PB: Yes, it's true, it's like... I think we've said we've done two years worth of acceleration in a couple of months or something like that, it's been... The idea of remote everything and all these other scenarios that we have had on paper, that people all of a sudden were like, "Yeah, I think I'll get to start using Teams at some point for a few meetings," and it's like "24/7, I'm on Teams." There you go and we're figuring that out. Actually, I'll tell our listeners, we're actually using a platform today called Squadcast because I'd been using Teams to record these shows, and just like anything else, you kind of find your weakest link, and Teams is just not designed to be a high-quality audio platform for things like podcasting. So Squadcast is designed... So we're capturing three wav file broadcasts now simultaneously in this recording, and then it'll all get munged up into the Cloud. So we'll see, I guess we'll get some feedback whether this sounds a lot better.   24:41 MC: So you just mute me for the whole time. That's fine. [chuckle]   24:42 PB: Well, the other thing, what's nice is a lot of podcasts used to be in the studio, right? And now it's like, why would I go to a studio to do a podcast? Especially, I've talked to you guys in the UK. I've talked to folks from Telstra in Australia, I can have lots of different really interesting conversations with people here, and I wouldn't have you fly to Redmond to sit in a studio, makes no sense. [laughter] So a lot of these scenarios about remote, telehealth and all these things that we were sort of like inching toward, and obviously education, I mean, we've had these conversations before. Everything is just sort of hyper-accelerated through the pandemic, and it'll be interesting to see which of these stick.   25:22 MC: I think health is a very big opportunity, and we're doing an awful lot in that space as well, because there's just an awful lot of activity going on in there that's been recognized that the pandemic's really helped with, well, not helped with...   25:33 PB: Well, yeah, and getting the right expertise in the room shouldn't be bound by your geographical location. You gotta bring the knowledge to the table as quickly as possible, especially in the health scenario, so that's exciting to see how that works out. We had a conversation with David Rhew, who's our Chief Medical Officer at Microsoft a few shows ago. And he was talking about the intersection of health and technology, and that's just such a game-changer that I think we're just tip of the iceberg, trying to figure that out.   26:04 MC: Big time.   26:06 TB: Yeah.   26:07 PB: Cool. Yeah. So what else is keeping you guys busy over in the UK, other than just surviving?   [laughter]   26:16 TB: The usual pandemic... Do the Americans have the same run on toilet rolls?   26:23 PB: We did but that was a long time ago. I think we're good. I think we're good with the toilet paper. [laughter] Yeah, we got over that. I notice, Tom, that we don't have our cameras on, but Tom is actually growing out the beard too, which is good, [laughter] I like to see that [26:35] ____.   26:36 TB: Oh, yeah, don't... We could have a pandemic beard.   26:37 MC: Alright, alright, okay, [26:38] ____.   26:38 PB: You didn't catch up. We're all doing the Rumpelstiltskin thing here. So hopefully at some point we'll be able to see each other again and in person. I can't remember the last time we actually... Where was it, at Barcelona or is it?   26:54 MC: I think we're out in...   26:56 PB: What's it? No, you were out in Redmond at some point, late last...   26:57 TB: Last November or October.   27:00 MC: Is that the last flight I took and...   27:04 TB: Matter of fact, yeah, you took us to a real hell place, I think you took us to...   27:08 PB: Where was that? Was that Black Raven maybe?   27:10 TB: Yeah I think so.   27:11 PB: Yeah, that's a good place. Yeah, the thing is, hopefully all these places stay in business and...   27:18 TB: Yeah, absolutely.   27:22 PB: Support your local restaurants, that's all I can say. And breweries, I guess, in your case.   [laughter]   27:28 TB: Food is optional.   27:31 PB: That's right, that's right. Cool. Well, it's good spending some time with you both, and appreciate it, and best luck in everything that's going on over there and I'm sure we'll see each other soon.   27:42 MC: Thanks Pete, thanks for the time-speak.   27:43 PB: Alright.   27:44 TB: Really appreciate it.   27:45 PB: Thank you, Tom. Thanks, Matt. Take care.   27:45 TB: Cheers.   27:47 MC: Bye.   27:47 PB: This is Pete Bernard. You've been listening to the IoT Unicorn Podcast, and thanks for joining us. Stay tuned for the next episode, and feel free to give us some feedback at the [email protected]. Thank you.